Friday, December 5, 1969
THIS TESTIMONY IS AVAILABLE FOR
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LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA, FRIDAY, DECEMBER 5, 1969,
10:08 O'CLOCK A.M.
-o0o-
(The Grand Jury Reporter, Anne F. Smith, was sworn by the Foreman to correctly take in shorthand and correctly transcribe, to the best of her ability, all of the testimony given by each and every witness testifying in the matters now pending before the Grand Jury, and to keep secret and divulge to no one any of the proceedings of the Grand Jury.)
THE FOREMAN: At this time I would like to read the Foreman's Statement.
Names of possible defendants:
Charles Manson, Charles Watson, also known as Charles Montgomery, Susan Atkins, also known as Sadie Mae Glutz, Linda Kasabian, Patricia Krenwinkel, Leslie Sankston, and Steve Grogan, also known as Clem Tufts.
Matters to be considered in connection with above-named possible defendants:
Between the late evening hours of August 8, 1969, and early morning hours of August 9, 1969, the following five persons were murdered by either gunshot and/or multiple stab wounds at the Roman Polanski residence located at 10050 Cielo Drive, Los Angeles, California:
One, Abigail Anne Folger.
Two, Wojiciech Frykowski.
Three, Steven Earl Parent.
Four, Sharon Marie Polanski.
Five, Thomas John Sebring.
The prosecution intends to prove by direct and circumstantial evidence that suspects Charles Manson, Charles Watson, Susan Atkins, Linda Kasabian and Patricia Krenwinkel entered into a conspiracy to murder any and all persons at the residence and pursuant to the conspiracy did, in fact, murder said victims.
Sometime between 2:00 a.m. and 10:30 p.m. on August 10, 1969, Leno LaBianca and his wife, Rosemary LaBianca, were murdered by multiple stab wounds inside their residence located at 3301 Waverly Drive, Los Angeles.
The prosecution intends to prove by direct and circumstantial evidence that the aforementioned five suspects and Leslie Sankston and Steve Grogan entered into a conspiracy to murder any and all persons inside a residence they had not yet selected. That pursuant to the conspiracy they selected the LaBianca residence and proceeded to murder Mr. and Mrs. LaBianca. Any member of the Grand Jury who has a state of mind in reference to the case, or to any of the parties involved, which will prevent him from acting impartially and without prejudice to the substantial rights of any of the said parties, will now retire. (There being no response, all Grand Jurors present remained.)
THE FOREMAN: The District Attorneys in charge of this hearing are Aaron Stovitz and Vincent Bugliosi.
Gentlemen, you may proceed with the hearing.
MR. STOVITZ: Richard Caballero. Our first witness will be Richard Caballero.
THE SERGEANT AT ARMS: Richard Caballero.
RICHARD CABALLERO,
called as a witness before the Grand Jury, was sworn and testified as follows:
THE FOREMAN: Will you state your full name; please
THE WITNESS: Richard Caballero.
THE FOREMAN: Will you raise your right hand and take the following oath:
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give in this matter now pending before the Grand Jury of the County of Los Angeles shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
THE WITNESS: I do.
THE FOREMAN: Will you please be seated.
EXAMINATION BY MR. STOVITZ
Q: Will you state your name, again, for the record; please.
A: Richard Caballero, C-a-b-a-l-l-e-r-o.
Q: And you are an attorney at law licensed to practice in the State of California?
Q: And have you been recently appointed by the Superior Court to represent a Susan Atkins in the defense of a murder charge pending in the Santa Monica Superior Court?
Q: Pursuant to that appointment, without telling us what you said, did you interview Susan Atkins?
Q: Again, without telling us what was said, during this conversation did you learn certain information from Susan Atkins?
Q: Now, have you advised Susan Atkins as to her constitutional rights?
Q: And is that not only pertaining to the so-called Gary Hinman case where Mr. Hinman is a victim, but as to all matters?
Q: And have you advised her that she has a right to remain silent and not testify before this Grand Jury or any other court proceedings?
Q: And has she indicated to you what her feelings were?
A: Yes, she will testify and I have so advised her, also.
Q: To your knowledge, has anyone exerted any pressure or any coercion on her to cause her to testify?
Q: To your knowledge, has anyone exerted any coercion upon any close friends or members of her family to cause her to testify?
Q: Have any threats at all been made to her to cause her to testify?
Q: To your knowledge, is she testifying freely and voluntarily?
MR. STOVITZ: I now have a photograph which we will ask to be marked as Grand Jury Exhibit 1.
May this photograph be marked, Miss Secretary, as Grand Jury 1?
THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.
Q BY MR. STOVITZ: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit 1.
Is this a fair representation of Susan Atkins, your client?
Q: What other names, if any, do you know her by?
A: Sadie, S-a-d-i-e, Mae, M-a-e, Glutz, G-l-u-t-z, which is the name she is booked under at Sybil Brand Institute.
MR. STOVITZ: I have no further questions.
THE FOREMAN: You are admonished not to discuss or impart at any time outside of this Jury Room the questions that have been asked of you in regard to this matter, or your answers, until authorized by this Grand Jury or the Court to discuss or impart such matters.
You may be excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
MR. STOVITZ: Susan Atkins, please.
THE SERGEANT AT ARMS: Susan Atkins.
SUSAN DENICE ATKINS,
called as a witness before the Grand Jury, was sworn and testified as follows:
THE FOREMAN: Will you state your name, please.
THE WITNESS: Susan Denice Atkins.
THE FOREMAN: I want to give you this admonition, first.
You have a right, at your own request, but not otherwise, to be sworn and make any statement on your own behalf that you may desire.
You are informed, however, that if you are sworn and make any statement, such statement, together with any questions that may be asked of you by the members of the Grand Jury or the District Attorney, will be taken down and become a matter of record, and in the event an indictment is filed against you on this charge, that record may be used either for or against you at the time of your trial.
You are not obliged, however, to make any statement whatsoever, unless you desire to do so.
Any statement that you make must be completely voluntary on your part, and with this admonition in mind.
Now that you have been informed of this right, do you still want to be sworn and testify?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE FOREMAN: If you will raise your right hand I will give you the following oath:
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give in this matter now pending before the Grand Jury of the County of Los Angeles shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE FOREMAN: Would you please be seated here.
EXAMINATION BY MR. STOVITZ
Q: Is it Miss or Mrs.?
Q: Miss Atkins, did you understand the statement of Mr. Bishop, the Foreman of this Grand Jury?
Q: Did your attorney, Mr. Caballero, explain to you your constitutional rights?
Q: Are you freely giving up your right to remain silent?
Q: And are you freely willing to testify before the Grand Jury?
Q: Now, do you understand that if you do testify that you may incriminate yourself?
A: Yes, I know that.
Q: Do you understand what the word incriminate means?
Q: Are you still willing to testify knowing that you are not being given immunity and you are not being freed of any of the charges that you may incriminate yourself about?
A: I understand this, and my life doesn't mean that much to me, I just want to see what is taken care of.
MR. STOVITZ: Would you kindly adjust the microphone as you would a telephone.
THE FOREMAN: If you will talk into this it will be easier for the members of the Grand Jury to hear you.
THE WITNESS: All right.
Q BY MR. STOVITZ: You understand this has to be as accurate as possible because you are under oath?
Q: You understand the difference between what you actually saw yourself, what you actually heard yourself and what somebody told you happened?
A: Yes, I know the difference.
Q: How old are you?
A: I am twenty-one.
Q: All right, now, Miss Atkins, I am going to introduce you to Mr. Bugliosi who is going to ask you some questions and think carefully about the questions he asks you. If you do not understand the question, say that you do not understand. This is not an intelligence test.
If he asks you a question before you have completed your first answer, just raise your hand and tell us, "Wait a minute, I haven't finished my first answer." Then he will stop and you can finish your answer; do you understand that?
MR. STOVITZ: Mr. Bugliosi, would you kindly proceed.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BUGLIOSI:
Q: Good morning, Susan.
Q: Are you a little nervous?
A: I'm scared to death.
Q: Well, most people who do testify in court are a little frightened, Susan, so it is not unusual.
Just sit back and relax and answer my questions to the best of your ability.
If I happen to ask you a question, Susan, and you don't know the answer right away, rather than answering quickly and possibly in error, I would appreciate it if you would take your time and think about these questions before you answer. Will you promise to do that?
Q: We have a lot of time and we'd all rather have you think before answering, and therefore answer correctly, rather than answering without thinking.
Will you do that?
Q: Now, these folks who are seated to Mr. Stovitz's and my left and right behind me are members of the Los Angeles County Grand Jury; do you understand that?
Q: These folks want you to tell them what happened, Susan, and they want you to be completely truthful with them.
Do you promise to do that?
MR. BUGLIOSI: We have here a photo, Mr. Foreman, of a male Caucasian.
May it be marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 2?
THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Susan, I show you a photograph of a male Caucasian marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 2.
Do you know who is shown in that photograph?
A: Charles Manson.
Q: Do you know Charles Manson?
Q: When is the first time that you met Mr. Manson?
A: A little over three years ago.
Q: And where did you meet him for the first time?
A: In a house on Lyon Street in San Francisco.
Q: Lyon Street is in the Haight-Asbury District?
Q: What other name, if any, did Mr. Manson go by?
A: At the time I met him, just Charlie.
Q: Would you please relate the circumstances surrounding your meeting Mr. Manson.
A: I was living in a house that primarily consisted of young people living together. We all shared our means of support, and I was sitting in the living room on the first floor of the house and a man walked in and had a guitar with him and all of a sudden he was surrounded by a group of girls.
Well, I sat and I watched and he sat down on the couch and I sat down to his right and he started to play music.
First he just started playing similar songs and went through Spanish -- a couple of Spanish songs and sung a few songs, and then the song that caught my attention most was The Shadow of Your Smile, and he sounded like an angel.
Q: You are referring to Charlie Manson?
And when he was through singing I looked up at him and I asked him if I could play his guitar and I wanted to get some attention from him. I don't know why, I just felt I wanted some attention from him and he handed me the guitar and to myself I thought, "I can't play this," and then he looked at me and said, "You can play that if you want to."
Now, he had never heard me say, "I can't play this," I only thought it.
So when he told me I could play it, a common expression, I blew my mind because he was inside my head and I knew at that time that he was something that I had been looking for. I didn't know what it was -- I was exactly looking for, but he just represented something to me inside and I went down and kissed his feet. I don't know why I kissed his feet, I just kissed his feet, and then -
Q: Would you please relate, Susan, your relationship with Mr. Manson thereafter.
A: Well, a day or so later he came back to the house and I knew it was him and I went running downstairs to meet him at the door and we walked back upstairs and he asked me if I wanted to go for a walk with him and I said, "Yes," and we walked a couple of blocks to another house in Haight-Asbury and he told me he wanted to make love with me.
Well, I acknowledged the fact that I wanted to make love with him and he told me to take off my clothes, so I uninhibitedly took off my clothes, and there happened to be a full-length mirror in the room and he told me to go over and look at myself in the mirror.
I didn't want to do it, so he took me by my hand and stood me in front of the mirror and I turned away and he says, "Go ahead and look at yourself, there is nothing wrong with you. You are perfect. You always have been perfect."
He says, "This is in body form. You were born perfect and everything that has happened to you from the time you were a child all the way up to this moment has happened perfectly. You have made no mistakes. The only mistake you have made are the mistakes that you thought that you made. They were not mistakes,"
Q: What happened next?
A: He asked me if I had ever made love with my father.
I looked at him and kind of giggled and I said, "No." And he said, "Have you ever thought about making love with your father?" I said, "Yes, I thought that I would like to make love with my father."
And he told me, he said, "All right, when we are making love imagine in your imagination that I am your father and, in other words, picture in your mind that I am your father." And I did, I did so, and it was a very beautiful experience.
Q: You did have sexual intercourse with him?
Q: You are also known, Susan, by the name of Sadie Mae Glutz; is that correct?
Q: Did Charles Manson give you that name?
Q: Did he tell you why he wanted to change your name to Sadie Mae Glutz?
A: Yes. In order for me to be completely free in my mind I had to be able to completely forget the past. The easiest way to do this is to have to change identity by doing so with a name.
I had started to pick out a name, a very long French sounding sexy name and in order to -- I don't know -- in order to --
Q: Well, in any event --
A: In any event, he gave me the name Sadie Mae Glutz.
Q: Did Mr. Manson call himself the Devil at all?
Q: Did he call himself Satan?
Q: Did he call himself Soul? S-o-u-l?
A: I understand your questions. I want to make certain because I don't want to say he did if he didn't.
Q: Yes, that is exactly what I want you to do, Susan, think before you answer.
A: I know I have called him the Soul..
Q: Have other people called him Soul in your presence?
You do not recall at this moment?
Q: Did Mr. Manson ever call himself Jesus?
A: He personally himself never called himself Jesus.
Q: Did you ever call him Jesus?
A: He represented a Jesus Christ like person to me.
Q: Did Mr. Manson talk about Jesus quite a bit?
Q: What did he say in that regard?
A: He said Jesus Christ was but a man like any other man with awareness of the world and the universe and he gave up his life willingly so that we could live in order to become the same, not Jesus, but the same consciousness that Christ was endowed with. We must be willing to experience the same thing Christ did for us.
Q: Did you ever hear anyone call him Jesus in your presence?
Q: How long did you stay in San Francisco?
A: Not more than a couple of weeks right after I met him.
Q: Where did you go from there?
A: We got a school bus.
Q: When you say "we," you yourself and Mr. Manson?
A: And four other girls.
Q: Four other girls?
A: Marie Theresa Brunner, Lynn Fromme, Ella Bailey, Patricia Krenwinkel, and myself, along with three or four males. I don't remember their names.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Mr. Foreman, I have a photograph of a female Caucasian.
May this be marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 3 for identification?
THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Susan, I show you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 3 for identification, a photograph of a female Caucasian.
Do you recognize who is shown in that photograph?
A: It is Patricia.
Q: What is her last name; Krenwinkel?
You have to answer out loud, Susan.
Q: Who were in the bus besides Charlie?
A: Just some men that came along, I don't remember their names.
Q: Where did you go in this bus?
A: We started traveling south.
Q: Do you know whose bus it was?
Q: How long did you travel in this bus?
A: On and off for a good year and a half.
Q: Basically, where did you travel, what area of the country?
A: Well, we went all up and down the coast of California to New Mexico and Arizona, Texas, and Nevada.
Q: Did you feel, Susan, that you were a real woman before you met Charlie?
A: No, I felt I was lacking somewhere.
Q: You didn't know what?
Q: Did Charlie show you how to become a real woman?
A: He didn't show me, he gave me my -- in other words, I gave myself up to him and in return for that he gave me back to myself. He gave me the faith in myself to be able to know that I am a woman.
Q: During this one to one-and-a-half-year period on the bus were all of you girls Charlie's girls, so to speak?
A: We were called Charlie's girls, but Charlie often told us, in fact every day he told us, "You people do not belong to me, you belong to yourself."
Q: Did you personally think that you belonged to Charlie?
Q: Did he have sexual intercourse with all of you girls?
Q: Were you jealous of the fact that he was having sexual intercourse with the other girls?
A: In the beginning I was until I came to an understanding that he was only making love to the girls for the purpose of love and also to give them back to themselves, also.
Q: Did he instruct you girls to have sexual relations with each other?
A: He didn't instruct us, no.
Q: Did he ask you to?
Q: Did you always try to please Charlie during this period?
Q: Was there any limit to what you would do for him?
Q: Were you very much in love with him, Susan?
A: I was in love with the reflection and the reflection I speak of is Charlie Manson's.
Q: Were the other girls also in love with him, to the best of your knowledge?
Q: Did all of you girls want to prove yourself to Charlie?
A: I cannot speak for the other girls.
Q: Did you try to prove yourself to Charlie?
A: I did attempt to prove myself to Charlie and every time he would see me trying to prove myself to him he would say, "You don't have to prove yourself to me. You don't even have to prove yourself to you."
Q: Did you and the other girls always do whatever Charlie asked you to do?
A: Yes, and if we didn't, it's because we didn't want to.
Q: As a general rule you did whatever he told you to do; is that correct?
Q: What was it about Charlie that caused you girls to be in love with him and to do what he wanted you to do; to be slavishly obedient to him; so to speak?
A: Charlie is the only man that I have ever met -- I'm not taking away from any other man -- on the face of this earth, the only man that I ever met that is a complete man.
He will not take any back talk from a woman. He will not let a woman talk him into doing anything. He is a man.
Q: How else would you describe Charlie?
A: He has more love to give to the world than anybody I have ever met. He would give himself completely, completely to anybody.
Q: Do you think Charlie is an evil person?
A: In your standards of evil, looking at him through your eyes, I would say, yes. Looking at him through my eyes, he is as good as he is evil, he is as evil as he is good. You could not judge the man.
Q: Did Charlie ever tell you that he was evil?
A: To my knowledge, no.
Q: Did he ever say he was as good as he was evil?
A: It isn't even an opinion, it is what I say.
Q: Did Charlie call you girls his slaves?
A: Starting about a year ago, a year and a half ago, he said, "I have tricked all of you. I have tricked you into doing what I want you to and I am using you and you are all aware of that now and it is like I have got a bunch of slaves around me," and he often called us sheep.
Q: Did you live, Susan, at the Spahn Ranch in Chatsworth?
Q: And when did you move there?
A: About a year and a half ago.
Q: And you moved there with Charlie Manson and the other girls?
Q: Were there any other girls at the ranch when you arrived there?
Q: Did other girls move in there after?
Q: Did Charlie seem to know these girls?
A: He got to know them immediately.
Q: Did you stay at the Spahn Ranch continuously up until -- up through the summer of 1969?
Q: Did you leave Spahn Ranch from time to time, however, and go to other places?
Q: But you'd always come back to Spahn Ranch?
Q: What is Spahn Ranch?
A: Spahn's Ranch is -- it is a very beautiful place. The buildings are dilapidated and falling apart but the surroundings is like a wooded area. It is up in the mountains. It used to be a movie ranch and George Spahn owns it. There is quite a few acres on the land and he still rents out horses for people to go horseback riding.
Q: George Spahn is an eighty-year-old man?
Q: He is almost totally blind?
Q: Did you girls take care of him?
Q: You took care of his lunches, and things like that?
Q: He had his little home there on the ranch?
Q: How did you survive on the ranch, Susan?
By that I mean what was your means of livelihood?
A: Where did we get our food, and things like that?
A: Well, as people would come and people would want to drop out of sight they'd give us mostly everything that they had and we'd usually give away -- in other words, we never held onto anything, we always gave it away. In fact, we gave away more than we ever had.
Our food, a lot of times we bought it - and it is going to sound very strange - the supermarkets all over Los Angeles throw away perfectly good food every day, fresh vegetables and sometimes cartons of eggs, packages of cheese that are stamped to a certain date, the stores are only allowed to keep them until that date, but the food is still good, and us girls used to go out and do garbage runs, is what we called it.
Q: You would pick up this food and take it back to the ranch?
A: Yes, and cut out the blue spots and check it over to see that it was good food.
Q: Did you do any begging at all for Charlie, begging other people for money?
A: We used to go out and panhandle.
Q: By that you mean ask people for money?
Q: Did Charlie ever ask you girls to steal anything for him during this period that you were on the ranch, such as credit cards, or other things?
A: No, I took it upon myself. I was -- we'd get programmed to do things.
Q: Programmed by Charlie?
A: By Charlie, but it's hard for me to explain it so that you can see the way -- the way I see the words that would come from Charlie's mouth would not come from inside him it would come from what I call the infinite.
Q: Well, what did he indicate to you with respect to stealing goods at all? Did he tell you girls to --
A: He just said we needed credit cards and we need that and we could use some of this.
Q: When he said that you assumed you had to go out and get them for him?
A: Yes, and also anything that we saw that we needed, it was up to us girls. We knew this, to take care of our men.
Q: How did you do that? What did you do?
A: Well, we went out on garbage runs and we went and panhandled and one time one girl and I put on dark clothes and took it upon ourselves to do this -- Charlie had no knowledge of this -- we went out and creepy-crawled.
Q: Explain to these members of the Jury what you mean by that.
A: Moving in silence so that nobody sees us or hear us.
Q: Wearing dark clothing?
A: Wearing very dark clothes and move at night.
Q: Where did you go?
A: We hitchhiked over into -- I forget the area -- and we were scared to death, it was something neither one of us ever experienced, and wanted to experience it because everybody else in the Family was doing it.
Q: They were doing what?
Q: Entering residences at night?
Q: And taking things inside the residences?
A: They never actually took anything inside the residence other than money. I never actually saw any money that they got from inside any of the residences.
Q: You and this girl on one occasion did enter a residence and take some money?
A: Not a residence, no.
A: There was an automobile parked on the side of the road. I opened the door and looked inside the glove compartment and saw some credit cards. I reached in and took them.
Q: Did you use those credit cards?
A: Personally myself I did not.
Q: Did you turn the credit cards over to Charlie?
A: I turned them over to Charlie, yes.
Q: At the ranch, that is, Spahn Ranch, did you and the other girls continue to do everything that Charles Manson wanted you to do?
I wanted you to understand that Charlie always told us, "You do what you want to do. If you do not want to do it, do not do it."
But when he would ask me to do something I felt I had to go ahead and do it because I know he would do the same thing for me otherwise he wouldn't ask me to do it.
Q: Apart from the manner in which you survived on the ranch, Susan, what type of life did you lead on the ranch with Charlie, you and the other girls?
A: It was beautiful, very very peaceful. We used --
Q: What did you do?
A: Well, we took care of the ranch and George and took care of each other. We all made love with each other, got over our inhibitions and inadequate feelings and became very uninhibited. We used to dance all the time.
Q: Did you ever walk around in the nude?
A: No, we were out in public, you know, we couldn't.
Q: Spahn Ranch is somewhat secluded?
A: Somewhat secluded but we never walked around in the nude. We used to gather -- in other words, we would all go through our changes during the day and do what we were doing that day.
Q: What do you mean by changes?
Q: When you say "changes," you mean doing different things during the day?
A: I mean like if I didn't like what one of the girls was doing, you know, I'd go over and I'd move about and say, "You're stupid for doing that." That is what a change is, and what she did she did because that is what she did and what I thought about it was irrelevant to what she actually did, it didn't matter, and then we'd all gather at night and sit down and start singing and Charlie would always play the guitar and we'd always sing songs and he used to make up the songs.
Q: What type of songs, folk songs?
A: Songs that I have never heard before or words that I have never heard before put together in such beautiful manners, some were happy, some were very -- left me with an open head, left me just sitting there like I was dead.
Q: Did you call your group by any name; Susan?
A: Among ourselves we called ourselves the Family, a Family like no other Family.
Q: In terms of love or hate how would you describe the Family?
A: Love completely. It was love in the group, complete love. We never despised anybody. We never hated anybody. We took in anybody that wanted to come in that was willing to give up everything they had for us. We all gave up each other's wants for each other.
Q: You loved other people, then?
A: Most definitely, we loved the whole world, everything in it, everything.
Q: You loved people in addition to your Family?
Q: Do you have a child, Susan?
Q: And what is the child's name?
A: Zo Ze Ze Se Zadfrack.
Q: When did you have this child, Susan?
A: October 7th, last year.
Q: At the Spahn Ranch?
Q: Did Charlie deliver the baby?
A: Yes, he did, along with fifteen other girls.
Q: Did Charlie frequently deliver babies that you girls would have?
A: Well, we only delivered two babies. He delivered three babies. One was Marie Theresa Brunner's baby and he didn't actually deliver that, I did, and the baby was born breech birth but in perfect health, and my son, Charlie delivered and one of the girls held me in an easy position.
Q: Charlie was the midwife, so to speak?
A: So to speak, yes. He was more with us women than he was with the men.
Q: Susan, were you living at the Spahn Ranch on the date August the 8th, 1969?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Mr. Foreman, the following testimony will relate to the first five counts of the proposed indictment, plus Count No. 8 of the proposed indictment.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Susan, on the date August the 8th, 1969, did Charlie Manson instruct you and some other members of the Family to do anything?
A: I never recall getting any actual instructions from Charlie other than getting a change of clothing and a knife and was told to do exactly what Tex told me to do.
Q: So Charlie told you on August 8, 1969, to get a fresh change of clothing, get a knife, and do whatever Tex told you to do?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Mr. Foreman, I have here a photograph of a male Caucasian.
May it be marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 4 for identification?
THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 4, Susan.
Do you know who is shown in this photograph?
Q: Is he also known as Charles?
Q: Hereafter in your testimony when you say Charles, will you be referring to Charles Manson or to Tex?
A: Charles Manson. I always call him Tex. Tex, and once in a while I will use the phrase Charles.
Q: Is Tex's name also Charles Montgomery?
A: That I don't know.
Q: Did Charlie -- now, when I say "Charlie," I am referring not to Tex, but to Charles Manson, did he instruct any other members of the group or tell any other members of the group to do anything that day?
A: During the day I don't particularly recall.
I must remind you that this whole experience seems like it happened a thousand years ago. I feel I have lived a thousand lifetimes since then.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Mr. Foreman, I have here a photograph of a female Caucasian.
May it be marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 5 for identification?
THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 5 for identification.
Do you know who is shown in that photograph, Susan?
A: Linda Kasabian.
Q: Did Charlie indicate to you that the type of clothing you should take should be dark clothing?
A: He told me that the type of clothing I should wear should be dark clothing and the clothes that I would take along with me should be -- didn't matter, just a change of clothing, wear dark clothes.
Q: Did you, in fact, put on a pair -- or, a dark clothing outfit?
Q: Did you pick up a fresh change of clothing?
Q: Did Charlie tell you where you were going to go?
Q: Did you, in fact, go anywhere on the evening of August the 8th, 1969?
Q: You got into a car at the Spahn Ranch?
Q: And who was in the car with you?
A: Tex, you know her as Patricia, I know her as Katie --
Q: Katie, that is Patricia Krenwinkel?
A: Yes, I always call her Katie.
A: Linda Kasabian and myself.
Q: So there was you, Tex, Linda Kasabian, and Patricia Krenwinkel; is that correct?
Q: About what time of day did you leave the Spahn Ranch?
A: It was late in the evening, I don't know. Time is irrelevant to me.
Q: You say late in the evening, you mean 11:00 p.m., thereabouts?
A: Could have been.
Q: Who drove the car?
Q: Did Tex tell you where you were going to go?
A: He told us that we were going to a house up on the hill that used to belong to Terry Melcher, and the only reason why we were going to that house was because Tex knew the outline of the house.
Q: Did Tex tell you that he knew the interior of the house?
A: Yes, he described it to us as we were traveling.
Q: How did Tex describe the interior of the house to you? Without going into detail, did he describe where the rooms were located in relation to each other?
Q: Did Charlie Manson ever tell you that he had been to Terry Melcher's former residence?
A: No, not to my recall.
Q: Did Tex tell you that he had been at one time to Terry Melcher's former residence?
A: Yes, he said that he and Charlie had been there once talking to Terry and I think he said with Dennis. Don't quote me on that because I don't know if he said with Dennis.
Q: You say "Dennis." Do you mean Dennis Wilson?
Q: Do you mean a performer with the Beach Boys?
Q: The recording outfit?
Q: Did Tex tell you while you were driving to the former residence of Terry Melcher, did he tell you that Terry Melcher no longer lived there?
Q: When you and Tex and Patricia Krenwinkel and Linda Kasabian left the ranch did Manson stay at the ranch?
Q: What type of car was Tex driving with you and the other girls in it?
A: It was a four-door Ford, yellow and white. It was an older car and it didn't have a back seat, just the floorboard.
Q: Do you know whose car it was?
A: It belonged to, I think, the foreman on the ranch.
Q: Do you know his name?
A: Johnny is all I know him by and Johnny frequently let us use his car. He had no knowledge what we ever used the car for.
Q: Did Charlie give you the car to use that night?
Q: When I say "Charlie," again, I am referring to Charlie Manson.
A: Charlie Manson, yes.
Q: Not Charlie Montgomery; do you understand that?
Q: As you left the ranch that night did Charlie Manson see you off?
A: Oh, I just remember sitting in the back seat of the car and waving goodbye.
Q: To Charlie Manson?
A: To everybody, Charlie, there were other people out there.
Q: Incidentally, do you know whatever happened to this particular car, this Ford?
A: I believe it was confiscated by the Malibu Sheriff's Station on a raid.
Q: On August the 16th, 1969?
A: I believe that is the date.
Q: At the Spahn Ranch?
Q: They impounded the car?
Q: Did you and the others take anything with you when you left the Spahn Ranch on the evening of August the 8th, 1969?
A: There was a rope in the back seat of the car when I got in there. There was a set of bolt cutters in the back seat of the car. Tex had a gun. I had a knife. Linda had a knife. Katie had a knife, and to my best knowledge I believe Tex had a knife.
You will see why I am not sure whether he had or not, but it makes sense that he did.
Q: All three of you girls had a knife; is that correct?
Q: Was the rope already in the car when you got into the car?
Q: How about the bolt cutters?
A: They were already in the car.
Q: Were you barefooted that night?
A: Yes, I was, my feet -- I had quite a few sores on my feet from infection and I couldn't wear shoes.
Q: Did Tex drive you directly to Terry Melcher's former residence?
A: We sort of got lost on the way. I think we took a wrong turn and ended up somewhere in Mulholland and we went directly there.
Q: What did you discuss in the car, Susan, as you drove to Terry Melcher's former residence? Who said what?
A: Tex did most of the talking. In fact, to my recall, he did all of the talking.
Q: Did Tex tell you why he and you three girls were going to Terry Melcher's former residence?
A: To get all of their money and to kill whoever was there.
Q: It didn't make any difference who was there, you were told to kill them; is that correct?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Mr. Foreman, I have here an aerial photograph of a residence.
May it be marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 6?
THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Susan, I show you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 6.
Is this a photograph of the residence where Tex drove you that night?
Q: Do you know about what time you arrived at that residence?
A: I just know it was late at night.
Q: Around midnight?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Mr. Foreman, there is a diagram on the wall directly behind you. May that be marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 7, I believe, for identification?
THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Susan, looking at this diagram on the wall could you step down off the witness stand, Susan, and walk around here and approach the diagram on the wall.
Do we have a pointer?
THE SECRETARY: There is one in the tray.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Susan, can you tell these members of the Grand Jury where Tex parked the car when you arrived at the residence?
A: Right here up this way. There would be another house over here. We parked between the power pole and the next door neighbor's house.
Q: So the place where Tex parked the car would be north of this diagram here, not shown on this diagram; is that correct?
MR. STOVITZ: Counsel, I believe north is pointing -
MR. BUGLIOSI: That's right.
MR. STOVITZ: So that would be west to the top of the diagram, in a westerly direction of the point indicated "power pole" on Exhibit No. 7.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: The place where Tex parked the car is not shown on this diagram; is that correct, Susan?
Q: What happened after Tex parked the car?
A: Well, it was kind of like we were all confused, we -- I didn't know what was going on. There was a lot of confusion at that time because I didn't know what was going on but I know that Tex got out of the car.
Tex got the bolt cutters, went to the power pole --
Q: You are pointing to --
Q: A portion of the diagram -- the part on the diagram that says "power pole" at the top of the diagram?
Q: What did Tex do when he approached the power pole?
A: He climbed up it and cut two lines.
A: Two wires that led to the house, to this house.
Q: You say "this house," and you are referring to a group of rooms shown as a house in the composite; is that correct?
Q: Do you recognize this house as the one that is shown in the photograph I just showed you?
Q: All right, what did Mr. -- or, what did Tex do after he cut the lines?
A: He climbed back down, told all of us to get into the car put the bolt cutters back in the car, and drove back down the hill and parked on a side street.
Q: This is not shown on this diagram; Susan?
A: That is correct.
Q: What happened next?
A: Then he told us to get our changes of clothes and we all walked back up the hill and walked to this fence.
Q: Now, when you say "this fence," I see the word "gate" on the diagram. Did you walk up to the gate?
A: We walked up to the gate but we didn't want to touch it or go over it because we thought there may be an alarm system or electricity running through it.
Q: Is there a fence adjacent to this gate?
Q: On the left and right?
Q: Now, what did you do after you approached the gate area?
A: We looked for a way to get over the gate and we noticed that --
Q: You say "get over the gate --"
A: Get over the fence.
A: We walked over this way -- it's not shown on the diagram and there is a hill that goes up like this next to the fence. We walked up the side of the hill and could see that we could get over the fence easier there than getting over the fence where the gate is.
Q: Now, facing the gate that night was the fence to your right?
Q: So the fence, then, would then be to the --
Q: Left of where I am pointing now but it would have been to your right?
A: That is correct.
Q: South on this diagram; is that correct, assuming that this is north?
Q: What happened after you approached the fence?
A: I was told to go over first so I threw my changes of clothes over the fence and held the knife between my teeth and climbed over and got my pants caught on part of the fence and had to kind of boost myself up and lift from where I was caught off of the fence and fell into bushes on the other side of the fence and I was followed by the other three people.
Q: You say "other three people," you mean Tex, Patricia Krenwinkel and Linda Kasabian?
Q: What happened next?
A: Then we were going to move forward in this direction.
Q: Toward the residence?
A: Toward the residence, and we saw lights coming from, apparently, this car.
Q: You say "this car." Are you referring to a little rectangle here that has "Parent's two-door Rambler, MPX 308"?
Q: Was this car in motion, would you say?
A: I didn't actually see the car, I just saw the headlights.
Q: Did the car appear to be in motion?
Q: What happened next?
A: Tex told us girls to lie down and be still and not make a sound. He went out of sight.
Q: Did all three of you girls lie down and stay silent?
Q: What happened next?
A: Tex went out of my sight and I heard him say, "Halt."
Q: Did you hear any voice other than that?
A: Yes, I heard a voice say --
Q: Was it a male voice?
A: It was a male voice.
Q: What did the male voice say?
A: "Please don't hurt me, I won't say anything." And I heard a gunshot and I heard another gunshot and another one and another one.
Q: You heard four gunshots?
Q: What happened next?
A: Tex came back to us and told us to come on. I saw him go to the car, which was not parked here. At the time, it was over here.
Q: It was parked closer to the gate than it is right now on the diagram?
A: Yes, he reached inside, turned off the lights, and then proceeded to push the car to where it is parked here.
Q: On the diagram?
Q: What happened next?
A: Then we walked --
Q: Towards the residence?
A: Towards the residence, past the garage.
Q: You say "past the garage," you mean this --
A: This building.
Q: Where it says two story garage" on the diagram?
A: Yes. I did not know it was a garage at that time.
We walked past that, came down to the walk but got off of the walk.
We came in this direction and walked over to this window.
Q: Is "this window" near the front door of the residence?
Q: Is it to the left or the right of the front door?
A: It is to the right.
Q: Did all four of you approach that area?
Q: What happened next?
A: Tex opened up the window, crawled inside and the next thing I knew he was at the front door opening the front door.
MR. BUGLIOSI: You may resume the witness stand, Susan.
I have here, Mr. Foreman, a photograph of a residence.
May it be marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 8 for identification?
THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Susan, I show you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 8 for identification.
Does this appear to be a photograph of the home where Tex and you other three girls went?
Q: I direct your attention to a door. Does this appear to be the front door that you have been referring to in your testimony?
Q: To the right of the front door I direct your attention to what appears to be an open window.
Is this the window through which Tex went?
Q: After he went through the window then he opened the front door, you say?
Q: Did all of you girls enter at that time?
A: Only two of us entered, one stayed outside.
Q: Who stayed outside?
A: Linda Kasabian.
Q: And you and Patricia Krenwinkel entered the residence?
Q: And at that time Tex was already inside the residence; is that correct?
Q: After you heard these four shots did you ever approach the vicinity of the car?
A: I walked past it.
Q: Did you see anyone inside the car?
Q: Did you look at their face?
A: I couldn't see the face, I just saw the head and it was leaning with his face --
Q: Towards the right or the left?
A: Towards the right to the passenger side.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I have here a photograph, Mr. Foreman, of a vehicle.
May it be marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 9 for identification?
THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.
MR. BUGLIOSI: And I have here another photograph of the interior portion of the vehicle, also depicted a male Caucasian behind the steering wheel in the driver's seat.
May it be marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 10 for identification?
THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Susan, I show you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 9 for identification.
When you walked by the car did you get a good look at the car?
A: I didn't pay too much attention to it.
Q: Did the car appear to be the one that is shown in this Grand Jury Exhibit No. 9?
A: It looked similar to it, yes.
Q: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 10 for identification.
Do you know what is shown in that photograph?
A: That is the thing I saw in the car.
Q: When you say "thing," you are referring to a human being?
A: Yes, human being.
Q: You notice his head is leaning towards the passenger side, that is to the right?
Q: Is that the way the individual looked on the night in question when you looked inside the car?
Q: He was in approximately the same position?
Q: Does this photograph -- strike that.
Did Linda stay outside?
Q: Do you know where she was outside?
Q: What happened after you and Patricia Krenwinkel joined Tex inside the residence?
A: As I walked in Tex was in front of the couch and there was a man lying on the couch and his head was -- the back of his head was facing me and he was facing the opposite direction. It was -- I was standing here and he was lying with his head here and his feet extending that way.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Can you hold it just for a second, Susan.
Mr. Foreman, I have here a photograph of a female and male Caucasian.
May this photograph be marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. -- I believe it is 10 -- 11 for identification?
THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Susan, I show you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 11, a photograph of a female and a male Caucasian.
Do you recognize any of the two individuals shown in that photograph?
A: I believe I recognize both of them.
Q: Do you know who they are?
A: I think the woman is Abigail Folger and the man is a man by the name of Frykowski.
Q: The man being on the right in the photograph; is that correct?
Q: Is this the man that was lying on the couch?
A: By the appearance of his face. I can't tell by the clothes. He wasn't wearing these.
Q: By the appearance of his face does this appear to be the man who was lying on the couch when Tex approached the couch?
A: It appears to be, I can't say for sure.
Q: What happened after Tex approached this man on the couch?
A: The man stretched his arms and woke up. I guess he thought some of his friends were coming from somewhere. He said, "What time is it?"
Q: Did Tex say anything in response to that?
A: Tex jumped in front of him and held a gun in his face and said, "Be quiet. Don't move or you're dead."
Q: Did the man say anything to Tex when Tex said that?
A: He said something like,"Well, who are you and what are you doing here?"
Q: What did Tex say to that, if anything?
A: He said, "I am the Devil and I'm here to do the Devil's business and where is your money?"
Q: What happened next?
A: He said, "My money is in the wallet on the desk." And Tex told me to go over and look at the desk.
I went over and looked at the desk and I didn't see a wallet and I told Tex I didn't see one.
Q: What happened next?
A: Tex told me to go into the bedrooms -- the other rooms, he didn't say bedrooms -- go in and see if there was anybody else in the house.
I went into two bedrooms, walked past one room and saw a woman sitting wearing glasses reading a book. She looked at me and smiled and I looked at her and smiled.
Q: Before you go any further, Susan, just hold it for one second. Susan, you say you looked into a room and you saw a woman reading something?
Q: Looking at Grand Jury Exhibit No. 11, here, the one showing the woman and the man, is that the woman you saw inside the room?
A: It looks like her.
Q: Abigail Folger?
Q: Did she say or do anything when you looked at her?
A: She looked at me, held her glasses down, and looked. I looked at her and waved my hand and smiled to her and went on to the next room and saw a man sitting with his back to me and the woman lying on the bed, apparently pregnant, and they were talking. Neither one of them saw me, and I walked back into the living room and acknowledged to Tex that there were three more people.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Mr. Foreman, I have here a photograph of a female Caucasian.
May it be marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 12 for identification?
THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I have another photograph of a male Caucasian.
May it be marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 13 for identification?
THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 12 for identification, Susan, and do you know who is shown in that photograph?
A: That is Sharon Tate.
Q: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit No.13 for identification.
Do you know who is shown in that photograph?
Q: You indicated that when you went into the room after you saw Abigail Folger you said you went into another room and there was a woman lying on the bed, apparently pregnant, and a man on the bed; is that correct?
Q: Looking at Grand Jury Exhibit No. 12 for identification, is that the woman, Sharon Tate, you stated was lying on the bed?
Q: Looking at Grand Jury Exhibit No. 13 for identification, a photograph of Jay Sebring, was he the one sitting on the edge of the bed?
A: I don't know whether he was sitting on the edge of the bed. When I looked at him his back was turned to me, but that is the man.
Q: What happened next?
A: Tex told me to tie up the man on the couch.
Q: Now, before he told you that, I take it you reported back to him that you found three people in two rooms; is that correct?
Q: And then Tex told you to do what?
A: Tie up the man on the couch, and so I took a rope and very loosely tied the man's hands.
Q: You say "the man on the couch," are you referring to Mr. Frykowski, the man who is shown with the woman in Grand Jury Exhibit No. 11?
Q: That I am pointing to right now?
Q: So you attempted -- or, you did tie Mr. Frykowski's hands?
A: I had him put his hands together in a crisscross fashion, and his wrists. I have never been very good at tying knots and I wrapped the rope around his hands a couple of times and I was shaking and everything was happening so fast that I did a very poor job of tying him up.
Q: Is this the rope that was in the car?
Q: When you left the Spahn Ranch?
Q: After you tied Mr. Frykowski what did you do?
A: I stood back and Tex instructed me to go back and get the other three people.
Q: Did you, in fact, do so?
Q: How did you accomplish that?
A: I walked back to the room and went into Abigail Folger's bedroom, put a knife in front of her, and said, "Get up and go into the living room. Don't ask me any questions. Just do what I say."
She then proceeded to get up out of bed and walk down the hall and was met by Katie.
Q: "Katie" being Patricia Krenwinkel?
A: Yes, was met by Katie and I went into the other bedroom and stood to the left of the door and told them both to get up and go into the living room.
Q: When you say "both," are you referring to Sharon Tate and Jay Sebring?
Q: What was the expression on Abigail Folger's face and Sharon Tate's face and Jay Sebring's face when you instructed them to go into the living room with the knife?
Q: Did Jay Sebring say anything once he entered the living room?
A: He said, "What are you doing here?" and Tex told him to shut up.
Q: Did Tex tell Sebring to sit down at that time?
A: He told him to go over and sit down -- this is -- correct me on your notes -- Jay Sebring proceeded to go over and sit down.
Tex told him to get back by the fireplace and lay down -- no, he didn't say -- strike-that -- he didn't say lie down --
Q: Take your time. This is -- I realize this is very difficult to remember, it happened several months ago. We have got a lot of time so just sit back and relax and try to think what happened.
A: Sharon said something to the effect that she is pregnant. Jay Sebring said, "Can't you see she is pregnant, let her sit down."
Q: Well, now, before Jay Sebring said that had Tex ordered Abigail and Sharon and Jay to do anything?
A: Yes, Tex ordered them all to lie down on their stomachs in front of the fireplace.
Q: He ordered Jay Sebring, Sharon Tate and Abigail Folger to lie down?
A: Yes, and Jay Sebring didn't follow Tex's orders and Tex shot him.
Q: Did you see Tex shoot Jay Sebring?
Q: With the gun that he had taken from the Spahn Ranch?
Q: What happened next?
A: Jay Sebring fell in front of the fireplace and Sharon and Abigail screamed.
Q: What happened next?
A: Then they went over and laid down next to Jay Sebring and Tex proceeded to tie a rope around Sebring's neck, then to Sharon Tate's neck, than to Abigail Folger's neck and threw the rope -- strike that we'll come back to that.
Tex asked the two girls if they had any money, Sharon Folger -- or, Abigail Folger said she did. Tex told me to take her into the bedroom. Abigail Folger walked into the bedroom. She reached into her purse and pulled out a wallet and said, "I only have seventy-two dollars, I just went to the bank yesterday," and asked me if I wanted any or her credit cards and I shook my head no.
I took the money and put it in my pocket and walked her back to the living room where then Tex had me retie Frykowski with a towel that I had gotten from the bedroom (sic).
Q: Did you in fact do that?
A: Yes, and I didn't do a very good job of that either.
Q: After you retied Mr. Frykowski what is the next thing that happened?
A: Then Tex tied up Jay Sebring with a rope around the neck.
Q: Was that the rope that was in the car?
A: With the rope -- that is not correct, excuse me -- Abigail was standing and Sharon was sitting. Tex went over to Jay Sebring and bent down and viciously stabbed Jay Sebring in the back many times.
A: With a knife. Then he told Sharon and Abigail to lie down next to him.
Q: Next to Jay Sebring?
A: Jay Sebring, and told Katie to turn off all the lights and the lights went out.
Q: What happened next?
A: There was still enough light from the outside lights so that we could see on the inside.
I looked over and I saw a dog in the window. The dog ran away.
And then he tied up Jay Sebring.
Q: "He," you are talking about --
A: Tex tied up Jay Sebring and Abigail Folger and Sharon Tate.
Q: What part of the body did he tie?
Q: What did he tie them up with?
Q: This is the rope that was in the car?
Q: And then after he tied Sharon Tate, Jay Sebring and Abigail Folger with the rope around their necks did he do anything with the rope?
A: Yes, he threw it over a high beam which he pulled which made Sharon and Abigail stand up so that they wouldn't be choked to death, and then --
Q: Did Tex say anything at that point to all the people inside the residence?
A: I forgot who said it, but one of the victims said, "What are you going to do with us?" Tex said, "You are all going to die." And at that time they began to plead for their lives.
Q: You say "they," you mean Frykowski --
A: Fkykowski and Sharon and Abigail and Jay was dying on the floor.
Q: How did they plead for their lives?
What did they say, if you recall?
A: I don't recall, I just know they were pleading, I would have been, too.
Q: What is the next thing that happened?
A: Then Tex ordered me to go over and kill Frykowski.
Q: What happened next?
A: I went over to him and raised my hand. I looked at him and hesitated.
Q: Did you have a knife in your hand at that time?
Q: What happened next?
A: I hesitated long enough for the man to jump up, he knocked me down and I grabbed him as best I could and then it was a fight for my life as well as him fighting for his life.
Somehow he got hold of my hair and pulled it very hard and I was screaming for Tex to help me, or somebody to help me, and Frykowski, he was also screaming.
Somehow he got behind me and I had the knife in my right hand and I was -- I was -- I don't know where I was at but I was just swinging with the knife and I remember hitting something four, five times repeatedly behind me. I didn't see what it was that I was stabbing.
Q: But did it appear to be a human being?
A: I never stabbed a human being before but I just know it was going into something.
Q: Could it have been Frykowski?
A: It could have been Frykowski, it could have been a chair, I don't know what it was.
Q: What happened next?
A: Then he got away from me. Mr. Frykowski got away from me. He started running towards the front door which was open and screaming bloody murder, yelling for his life, for somebody to come help him.
Tex went -- that whole period right there is very confusing to me.
Q: Relax, Susan, and take your time.
What is the next thing that happened?
A: Frykowski was running and screaming. He got to the door and Tex hit him over the head.
Q: Do you know what he hit him over the head with?
A: I believe a gun butt.
Q: Do you know how many times he hit him with the gun butt, approximately?
A: I didn't count the exact number of times.
Q: Quite a few times?
A: A couple of times.
Q: In addition to hitting Mr. Frykowski over the head with the gun butt did Tex do anything else to Mr. Frykowski at that point?
A: He was stabbing him as best he could because Frykowski was fighting.
Q: Tex was stabbing Frykowski with Tex's knife?
Q: Now, with respect to Tex hitting Frykowski over the head with this gun butt did anything happen to the handle of the gun at that point?
A: I believe it broke.
Q: How do you know it broke?
A: He told me later.
Q: When did he tell you that?
A: When we were still in the house I believe he said, "The gun doesn't work any more. I broke it over his head."
Q: I am referring to the handle, now, did Tex say that the handle broke?
A: He just said the gun broke.
Q: As he was hitting Frykowski over the head?
A: Yes -- I'm not sure as he was hitting Frykowski over the head. I just know later on -- in what sequence, I don't know -- but he told me later that the gun was broken and wouldn't work any more. The gun was no good.
Q: While Tex was hitting Frykowski over the head with the gun butt and stabbing Mr. Frykowski where were Jay Sebring, Sharon Tate and Abigail Folger?
A: Jay Sebring, I would believe, he was dead.
Q: Did he appear to be dead?
A: He appeared to be dead, lying on the floor.
Q: Lying on the floor?
A: Yes, although I heard moaning. I don't know whether it came from Jay Sebring or not. Abigail Folger had gotten loose from the rope and was in a fight with Patricia Krenwinkel and --
Q: Going back just a little bit, before we get into that, after Tex stabbed and struck Frykowski did Tex do anything to Jay Sebring?
A: That could be when he went back -- I already stated this -- that could be when he went back and stabbed Frykowski (sic). Now, all I know is that he stabbed Frykowski (sic). I saw him.
THE FOREMAN: We have a Grand Juror that would like to be excused for just a couple of minutes. We will wait for you.
(A recess was taken.)
THE FOREMAN: You may continue, now.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Thank you, Mr. Foreman.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: If you recall, Susan, after Tex struck Frykowski and stabbed Frykowski did he do anything at that time to Jay Sebring?
A: Like I said earlier, that could be when he went back and stabbed Sebring.
Q: Sebring was lying down at that time?
A: Yes. In fact, I am almost positive that is when he did it because Katie was fighting with Abigail.
Q: Had Abigail gotten free from the rope at that time?
A: Yes, and Sharon Tate, I remember seeing her struggling with the rope.
Tex told me to take care of Sharon and Katie was struggling with Abigail and was asking for help.
Q: Did you do anything to Sharon Tate at that point?
A: I went over and grabbed her by the hand and put my arm around her neck. She looked at me and begged to let me have her sit down and I was told before we even got there no matter what they beg don't give them any leeway.
Anyway, I went over and put her down on the couch and looked into her face knowing that anything that I would say I was saying to myself, in a sense reassuring myself. I looked at her and said, "Woman, I have no mercy for you." And I knew at that time I was talking to myself not to her.
Q: Did Sharon say anything about the baby at that point?
A: She said, "Please let me go. All I want to do is have my baby."
Q: Had Sharon freed herself from the rope at that point?
A: Not to my knowledge. I believe she still had the rope around her. There was a lot of confusion going on and I sat there and held her while Tex went over to help Katie and I saw Katie be released from Abigail's grip and I saw Tex stab Abigail Folger and just before he stabbed - maybe an instant before he stabbed her she looked at him and let her arms go and looked at all of us and said, "I give up, take me."
Q: Abigail Folger said that?
Q: Did you observe Frykowski -- strike that.
You observed Tex strike Abigail -- or, stab her several times with a knife?
A: Once only. She grabbed her middle section of her body and fell to the floor.
Q: You are talking about Abigail, now?
A: Yes, and then I saw Tex go back outside and then he came back inside and at that time Katie and I were standing by Sharon and she was out of her mind.
Q: Was she saying anything?
Q: Was she screaming?
Q: Were you still holding her hand at that point?
A: I was just standing in front of her.
Q: Did Tex do anything to Sharon Tate at that point?
A: Tex told me to kill her.
Q: To kill Sharon?
A: Yes, and I couldn't. I just -- in order to make a diversion so that Tex couldn't see that I couldn't kill her I grabbed her hand and held her arms and then I saw Tex stab her in the heart area around the chest.
Q: You saw Tex stab Sharon in the heart area?
Q: What is the next thing that happened?
A: Then I saw Sharon fall to the floor off the couch and we went, all three of us, went out the front door.
Q: You, Katie, who is Patricia Krenwinkel, and Tex?
A: We all went out the front door and I saw Abigail Folger on the front lawn bent over falling onto the grass.
I don't know how she -- I didn't see how she got outside. I didn't see her go outside. I just saw her outside and I saw her falling and her nightgown was a seethrough nightgown and I saw blood on it and I saw Tex go over and stab her three or four -- I don't know how many times.
Q: You saw Tex stab Abigail three or four times?
A: Yes, While he was doing that Katie and I were looking for Linda because she wasn't anywhere around. In fact, we started calling for her. We didn't want to call too loud, and then Tex walked over to Frykowski and kicked him in the head.
Q: Where was Frykowski at that time?
A: On the front lawn away from the front door. Evidently he had moved, was still alive, and was still moving.
Q: Was he standing or lying down?
A: Lying with his back to me.
Q: He was lying down when Tex kicked him in the head?
A: Yes, and the body didn't move very much. I believe it was dead at that time.
Then we walked up to the gate. We walked up to here and around in this area.
Q: You approached the --
A: No, excuse me, we walked to this area.
Q: This is right outside the residence?
A: Yes, we walked right over to this area here.
Q: Where it says "light" and, in parentheses, it says "blue"?
A: That is correct.
Q: Were you looking for Linda at that point?
Q: Did you know where Linda was?
Q: Where was Tex at that point?
A: He was walking towards Katie and me in this direction.
Q: What happened next?
A: Then Tex told me to go back into the house and write something on the door in one of the victim's blood.
Q: Did he tell you what to write?
A: He said, "Write something that would shock the world."
Something to that effect. I don't even want to be quoted on that because what I just said came off the top of my head.
I had previously been involved in something similar to this where I saw political piggy written on the wall so that stuck very heavily in my mind.
I didn't want to go back anywhere near the house and so I just blanked my mind and walked into the house and picked up the same towel that I had tied Frykowski up with and walked over to Sharon Tate's body and she seemed to have been cut up a lot more than when I had last seen her. I never actually saw her face. Her hair was covering her face and there were sounds coming from her body but I was hearing so much and at that time I wasn't hearing anything.
Q: What type of sounds were they?
A: Gurgling sounds like blood flowing into the body out of the heart.
Q: What did you do then?
A: I picked up the towel and turned my head and touched her chest and at the same time I knew she was pregnant and I knew that there was a living being inside of that body and I wanted to but I didn't have the courage to go ahead and take it.
Q: When you say "go ahead and take it," you mean cut it out?
A: That's right. And I got the towel with Sharon Tate's blood, walked over to the door and with the towel I wrote pig on the door.
Q: Was this the outside?
A: This was the outside of the front door.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Mr. Foreman, I have here a photograph of a door.
On the front of the door are the letters PIG apparently written in blood.
May this be marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 14 for identification?
THE FOREMAN: Yes.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 14 for identification.
Do you know what is shown on that photograph?
Q: What is shown on the photograph?
A: It says "PIG"in Sharon Tate's blood.
Q: Is this the "PIG" that you wrote on the outside of the front door?
Q: You wrote this in blood; is that correct?
Q: After you wrote the letters PIG on the outside of the front door what is the next thing that happened?
A: I held the towel in my hand and stood there for a few minutes. I did not know what to do.
I turned around and threw the towel towards the living room area towards where Sharon Tate and Jay Sebring were lying.
Q: Did you see where the towel landed?
Q: What is the next thing that happened?
A: I walked out the front door at a very rapid pace up to Tex and Katie and Tex pushed the button that opened the front gate.
Q: Is this the electric button?
A: Yes, and we proceeded to walk down the hill to the car. When we got to the car we saw Linda Kasabian in the car.
She started the car and Tex ran up to her and said "What do you think you're doing? Get over on the passenger side. Don't do anything unless I tell you to do it." Then we drove off.
Q: Now, you have indicated earlier, I believe, Susan, that you left some clothing at the gate before you entered the residence?
A: Yes, we picked those clothes up before we left.
Q: After you had done everything inside the residence you three left and you walked up to the gate and picked up the clothing again?
Q: This was the clean pair of clothing?
Q: Did you have blood all over your body at that time?
A: There was a possibility I could have. I didn't look.
Q: What about the other three people?
A: There was a possibility they could have. I'm pretty sure Tex had a lot of blood on him.
Then we got in the car and as we were driving we changed our clothes inside the car.
Q: While the car was in motion you were changing your clothing; is that correct?
Q: Where did you drive?
A: We started to drive all over and we drove up to a house in some residential area -- strike that.
We drove somewhere along Mulholland Drive, somewhere up in the canyon, I can't say for sure where.
Q: What canyon are you referring to?
A: Benedict Canyon, Mulholland Canyon, I don't know.
Q: What happened when you reached Mulholland Drive?
A: All we did was drive along and all of the weapons except for one weapon, I believe it was my knife, was handed to Linda who was sitting up in the front seat along with the gun and we drove along the road until we came to what looked like an embankment going down like a cliff with a mountain on one side and a cliff on the other.
Tex asked for something white, some sort of a piece of cloth. In other words, if there happened to be a car behind he could throw out the white rag as a diversionary.
We stopped two or three times. Linda threw away all the bloody clothes over the side of the hill along with the weapons at different intervals.
Q: Three different intervals?
A: Three or four different places, I don't remember how many.
Q: Did Linda get out of the car on all of these occasions?
A: I think only on two of the occasions she got out of the car.
Q: To your knowledge, then, she threw the bloody clothing --
Q: And what else, again?
A: All of the weapons except for one knife.
Q: The gun and the knives?
A: Yes, I knew on the way down the hill that I had lost a knife.
Q: Now, what is the next thing that happened after Linda threw the clothing and the weapons over the side of the highway?
A: We went to a house -- or, to a street that looked like a dark street, it didn't have any street lights on it.
Q: Why did you go there?
Q: To wash the blood off of you?
A: Yes, only I didn't know that until we actually got to the house. We were so much one with each other that we really didn't need too many words spoken. Everything we did from the time he cut the poles to the time we got back to the ranch was spontaneous. It was done with no thought.
Q: So why were you looking for a house?
A: Evidently to wash off ourselves, the blood off ourselves, because that is what we did.
Q: Did you find a house?
A: Yes, we found a very dark house and there appeared to be nobody home.
Tex found the hose. We took and turned on the hose and took it out into the street and started washing ourselves off, our feet and our arms and our faces. We had already changed clothes, so -- and I heard a man and a woman come out and they were yelling, "What is going on?"
Q: What house did they come out of?
A: This same house that we turned the water on, and the woman was yelling something about, "My husband belongs to the Los Angeles Police Department and he is going to see that --" blah, blah, and blah, blah, I don't recall exactly what she said.
Q: Did she say Police Department?
A: I think she said Police Department, I'm not sure.
Q: All right, what is the next thing that happened?
A: And Tex looked at him and said, "Gee, I'm sorry, I didn't think you were home. We were just walking around and wanted a drink of water. We didn't mean to wake you up or disturb you."
And the man looked down the street and said, "Is that your car?" And Tex said, "No, I told you we were just walking." The man said, "I know that is your car. You better get in and get going."
And at that time she said to get the license number and she was frantic and she started calling us filthy hippies and tramps and calling us girls sluts and prostitutes and all those crazy thing that people do.
Q: What is the next thing that happened?
A: Tex told us girls to get into the car, so we walked to the car and got in the car.
Q: What did the woman's husband do at that point?
A: He reached in to get -- to turn off -- to get the keys and the car was already started, Tex had already started the car and the man reached in to turn off the car and Tex put the car in low and drove off very fast.
Q: Where did you go from there?
A: We drove around and ended up back at the ranch.
Q: Before you went to the ranch did you stop anywhere?
A: We stopped at the gas station.
Q: What did you do at the gas station?
A: Filled up the car with gas and went into the bathroom and checked for any other blood spots.
In my fight with Frykowski I had opened the sores that I had on my feet and my feet were bleeding and very sore.
Q: Where was this gasoline station located?
A: I think it was located on Sunset Boulevard.
Q: This gas station was where, again?
A: Somewhere on Sunset Boulevard.
Q: And after you went to the gas station did you go directly back to the ranch?
Q: Approximately what time did you arrive back at the ranch?
Q: Do you have any idea?
A: It was in the morning.
I remember being in the house -- going back -- being at the Tate house, I recall either hearing twelve chimes or seeing a clock that said twelve.
Q: When you were in the Tate residence?
A: When we were in the Tate residence, so we probably got back to the ranch somewhere around 2:00 o'clock.
Q: In the morning?
Q: When you arrived back at the ranch was Charlie Manson there?
Q: Did Mr. Manson say anything to you?
A: He said, "What are you doing home so early?"
Q: Did he say anything else?
A: All the things that happened after that are very foggy to me. All I know is that I got out of the car. I had seen blood on the car at the gas station and I went into the kitchen and got a sponge and a rag and went back out to the car and wiped it off.
Q: The inside of the car?
A: The outside of the car, door handles and the steering wheel.
Q: What about the inside of the ear?
A: No, I don't think I did anything to the inside of the car. I may have but I don't remember.
Q: Did you tell Manson what you had just done?
A: I didn't personally, no.
Q: Did Tex tell Manson in your presence what you and Tex and the two girls had done?
Q: What did Tex tell Mr. Manson?
A: Basically just what we had done. That it all happened perfectly. There was a lot of -- it happened very fast -- a lot of panic, that we were panicked, and he described it, "Boy, it sure was helter-skelter."
Q: Tex said this to Charlie?
Q: Now, Susan, you have been referring to these people by their -- by the name of Sharon Tate and Mr. Frykowski and Abigail Folger and Jay Sebring. At the time you were inside the residence with them did you know who they were?
A: I had no idea who they were.
Q: So you did not know their names at that time?
A: No, I just -- when I first saw them my reaction was, "Wow, they sure are beautiful people."
Q: When you first saw them?
Q: When is the first time that you learned who those people were?
A: The next morning on the news and the TV.
Q: Where were you watching the television?
A: At the ranch in a trailer next to George Spahn's house.
Q: Who was inside the trailer at that time?
A: Katie, Tex, Clem, myself. I think Kasabian, I'm not sure whether she was or not.
Q: As you were watching the television news coverage at the Spahn Ranch did anyone say anything inside the trailer?
A: "The Soul sure did pick a lulu but the Soul did a good job," or something to do with the Soul, not meaning Charlie Manson picked a good one, meaning infinite Soul.
Q: Who said that?
A: I believe the words came from my mouth. I'm not sure because I don't know for sure. I just know that something to that effect was said.
I would rather say it came from my mouth than put it on somebody else not knowing whether they said it or not.
Q: Did you say anything else when you learned who those four people were?
A: Something to the effect that it served its purpose.
Q: What had happened served its purpose?
Q: Did you say anything else?
A: Right now I don't remember. Do you have anything on your notes?
Q: Well, you can't ask me any questions, Susan, I'm just trying to find out what happened to the best of your recollection.
Did you say why this had been done?
A: To instill fear into the establishment.
Q: Did you say anything about black people at that time?
A: Not at that time, no.
Q: Did you ever say anything about black people with respect to what took place at the Tate residence?
Q: How did you feel about what you had just done? I am referring to when you got back to the Spahn Ranch.
A: I almost passed out. I felt as though I had just killed myself. I felt dead. I feel dead now.
Q: How was Charlie Manson acting when you arrived back at the Spahn Ranch, normally?
A: Charlie Manson changes from second to second. He can be anybody he wants to be. He can put an any face he wants to put on at any given moment.
Q: How about Tex how was he acting once you got back to the Spahn Ranch?
A: Nervous like he had just been through a traumatic experience.
Q: How about Patricia?
A: Patricia was very silent.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Mr. Foreman, the following testimony will relate to Counts VI and VII and VIII of the proposed indictment.
MR. STOVITZ: Mr. Foreman, may we take our afternoon recess at this time and reconvene at 1:00 o'clock?
THE FOREMAN: Yes, I would like to do that if it will work out for the best interest of the hearing.
MR. STOVITZ: I think it would be in the best interest.
THE FOREMAN: Before you leave I would like to give you this admonition:
You are admonished not to discuss or impart at any time outside of this Jury Room the questions that have been asked of you in regard to this matter, or your answers, until authorized by this Grand Jury or the Court to discuss or impart such matters.
You will understand that a violation of these instructions on your part will be the basis for the charge against you of contempt of court.
This admonition, of course, does not preclude you from discussing your legal rights with any legally-employed attorney, should you feel that your own personal rights are in any way in jeopardy.
THE WITNESS: In other words, what you just said -- I was off -- did you say I can discuss this?
THE FOREMAN: You can discuss it with your attorney. You can discuss it with your attorney. That is the only one that you can discuss anything with, is your attorney.
We are going to reconvene the Grand Jury at 1:00 o'clock, so you will be excused until 1:00 o'clock.
(The noon recess was taken.)
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA, FRIDAY, DECEMBER 5, 1969,
1:08 O'CLOCK P.M.
-o0o-
MR. STOVITZ: May we have Susan Atkins; please.
SUSAN DENICE ATKINS,
the witness on the stand at the time of the noon recess, having been previously duly sworn, resumed the stand and testified further as follows:
THE FOREMAN: I would like to remind you that you are still under oath and the admonition that I gave you this morning still stands.
THE WITNESS: I understand that.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Okay, we hope to have you off the witness stand in about a half hour or so. I know it is not easy up there.
Going back just a second, Susan, with the Tate homicides, on the day following the date of the homicides, in addition to your comment when you saw the news over the television did you hear any other member of the Family discuss these Tate murders at the ranch?
A: Some of the girls talked about it and said that -- I don't recall exactly what they said but they were aware of the fact that we had gone out the night before.
Q: They were aware of the fact that --
A: We had gone out.
Q: That Katie, Tex and Linda had done it?
A: Not had done it but had gone out the night before. At that time they weren't aware of the fact that we had done it but we didn't actually have to say anything. The Family was so much together that nothing ever had to be said. We all just knew what each other would do or had done.
Q: You got the impression that other members of the Family knew that you, Tex, Linda and Katie had done it?
A: I got the impression they put two and two together.
Q: Did you hear Tex or Charlie talk about it the day following?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Mr. Foreman, the following testimony again, will relate to Counts VI, VII and VIII of the proposed indictment.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Susan, on August the 10th, that is the following night following the Tate homicides, did Charlie say anything to you?
A: He told me to go get two changes -- get a change of clothes.
I looked at him and I knew what he wanted me to do and I gave a sort of a sigh and went and did what he asked me to do. I didn't pick up any weapons.
Q: Did he ask you to get a knife?
Q: This is Charlie Manson you are talking about?
Q: Did he say what you were going to do that night?
A: He said we were going to go out and do the same thing we did the last night.
Q: You gave Charlie a sigh when he said that?
A: Yeah, I was in a state of shock.
Q: From the previous night?
A: From the previous night.
Q: What time did you leave the ranch that night?
A: I don't know. I know it was in the early evening. It was after dark.
Q: What car did you leave in?
A: The same car as the night before.
Q: Who drove the car?
Q: Who was in the car with you and Charlie?
A: Tex, Clem, Katie, Leslie, Linda and myself.
Q: So there was Charlie, that is Manson, Clem, Katie, and Leslie, and Tex; is that correct?
A: Yes and Linda.
MR. BUGLIOSI: And Linda Kasabian.
Mr. Foreman, I have here a photograph of a male Caucasian.
May it be marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 15 for identification?
THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I have here another photograph of a female Caucasian.
May it be marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 16 for identification?
THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 15.
Do you know who is shown in this photograph?
A: Yes, that is Clem.
Q: And he was one of the persons who was in the car that Charlie was driving that night?
Q: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 16.
Do you know who is shown in that photograph?
A: That is Leslie.
Q: Do you know her last name?
Q: Does the name Sankston ring a bell?
A: No. I don't think I ever knew Leslie's last name.
Q: This is the Leslie about whom you have been referring as being in the car?
Q: Were there any weapons in the car?
A: Just a gun, to my knowledge.
Q: Who had the gun?
Q: This was not the same gun as the previous night?
A: The gun the previous night was thrown over a hill.
Q: After you got into the car where did Charlie drive the car?
A: We just started driving and I know that we went to Pasadena because we went on the Pasadena Freeway.
Q: While you were driving around, Susan, was there any discussion as to what you were going to do?
A: The only discussion that I can recall, sticks in my mind, is that the same thing we had done last night only two different houses, there was to be two sets of -- two groups consisting of one man and two girls to go to two different houses. That is why there were two men and six women -- and four women.
Q: Who was saying this?
A: Charlie Manson. I don't know that these were the exact words but basically that is what he said.
Q: Charlie Manson told you other people in the car that you were going to two houses this particular night, August 10th?
Q: And that your group would be broken up into two groups?
Q: One for each house; is that correct?
Q: While you were driving around did Charlie stop the car at any time?
Q: Did Charlie get out of the car?
Q: Was the car parked in front of a home?
Q: Do you know what area of town that was in?
A: Somewhere in Pasadena, I believe.
Q: Did the rest of you stay in the car?
Q: What did Charlie do; if you recall?
A: I don't know. We drove around the block and came back and picked Charlie up.
Q: Did Charlie say anything once he got back in the car?
A: Yes, he said he saw pictures of children through the window and he didn't want to do that house.
Q: Did Charlie ever make any comments to you about his feelings towards children?
A: He loves children very much, children are the answer.
Q: Did Charlie stop at any other house after that?
A: We stopped at one house and then --
Q: Do you know where that was?
A: Somewhere in the same neighborhood.
Q: Did Charlie get out of the car at that time?
Q: He stayed in the car?
Q: What took place in front of that house?
A: Nothing, we just watched.
A: About two, three minutes.
Q: Was anything said at that time?
Q: What happened next?
A: We drove on and then we just continued driving around and I fell asleep, I was thoroughly exhausted, and when I woke up we were in front of another house and I seemed to recognize the house -- not the house, but the particular area.
Q: Before we go into that, just go back a second.
Charlie saw some pictures of children in one of these homes; is that correct?
Q: He did not want to kill anyone because of the children?
A: That is correct.
Q: Did Charlie make any statement to you at that time with respect to the possibility of killing children in the future?
A: He said, "You realize that if you have to take the life of a child it would only be to save the children of the future."
Q: Did he explain what he meant by that?
Q: All right, so eventually, then, you stopped in front of another home; is that correct?
Q: And you recognized what about this house?
A: I recognized the surroundings.
Q: Had you been to that area before?
A: About a year, about a year previous.
Q: Were you there by yourself at that time?
A: No, I was there with about fifteen people.
Q: Did you enter a home at that particular time a year earlier?
Q: Was that home -- where was that home in relation to the home in front of which you were presently parked?
A: Next door to the right.
Q: What had you done in that other home about a year earlier?
A: We all took an LSD trip together.
Q: You and Charlie and some other people?
A: Yes, about fifteen of us.
Q: You recognized this home?
A: I recognized the area.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Mr. Foreman, I have here another photograph.
This is a photograph of the front portion of a home.
May it be marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 17 for identification?
THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 17 for identification, Susan, and ask you if you have seen that particular home before.
A: The home I did not see. This wall I did recognize.
Q: You say "this wall," you are pointing to the wall on the left side of the photograph?
MR. BUGLIOSI: I have here another photograph, Mr. Foreman.
It appears to be the same home but it also shows a driveway.
May it be marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 18 for identification?
THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Susan, I show you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 18 for identification.
Do you know what is shown in this photograph?
A: Yes, we were parked, basically, right here.
Q: Right at the bottom of the driveway?
A: Yes, more in front of the pillar. And the reason why I couldn't see the house was I was sitting in the back seat and the back -- like I said earlier, there is no back seat to the car and I was slumped down because I was sleeping and when I looked up I just woke up from a dream and I dreamed that Charlie had gone into a house with Tex and killed the people.
Q: Now, you do recognize this driveway right here; is that correct?
Q: And your car was parked in front of the driveway?
A: Somewhere around in this area, in between here and here.
Q: And to the right of the home that is shown in this photograph here, Grand Jury 18, there is another home where you had gone a year earlier with Charlie; is that correct?
Q: What happened after Charlie stopped the car in front of this home?
A: He got out of the car.
Now, the only reason why I know he got out of the car is because when I woke up he wasn't in the car.
Q: Was everyone else in the car?
Q: That is, Clem and the rest of them?
Q: What happened next?
A: Then he came back and he said, "Tex, Katie --" and he looked at me and he could see that I didn't want to go into the house, and he said, "Leslie, go into the house. I have got the people tied up. They are very calm."
He said something to the effect last night that Tex let the people know they were going to be killed which caused panic and Charlie said that he reassured the people with smiles in a very quiet manner that they were not to be harmed and -- just that they were not to be harmed.
And so Tex and Leslie and Katie got out of the car.
Q: You say "Katie," Patricia Krenwinkel?
Q: And Leslie, is that the photograph of the girl I showed you?
Q: Three of them?
Q: These three got out of the car?
Q: And you and Charlie and Clem and Linda remained in the car?
A: Yes, and Charlie also had a wallet which he supposedly got from the house. He said it was the woman's identification.
Q: When did Charlie say this?
A: When he got back in the car and after he sent Linda -- not Linda, but Leslie and Katie and Tex into the house.
Q: Did Charlie tell Tex and Katie and Leslie what to do once they entered the house?
A: No. Whether it be a fact that I heard it or my imagination that tells me this, I'm not sure, so, you know --
Q: What is your present belief at this time?
A: It is not a belief it is just a thought that is in my mind.
Q: What is the thought at this time?
A: That Charlie instructed them to go in and kill them.
Q: And you said that he had already tied them up; is that correct?
A: Yes, he said to paint a picture more gruesome than anybody had ever seen.
Q: He told Tex this?
Q: Did he tell Tex and Leslie and Katie how they were supposed to get back to the ranch that night?
Q: He indicated to them that he and you and the rest would not wait outside?
A: That is correct.
Q: Did you see Katie and Leslie and Tex enter the home?
Q: How long after they left your car did Charlie drive off?
A: Almost immediately.
Q: You did not come back to the house that night?
Q: Did Charlie indicate why he had picked this particular house?
A: No, not right away, but I would gather from my own --
Q: Well, apart from any assumption on your part did Charlie ever indicate why he picked this particular house?
A: I thought about that last night and I asked him if it was Harold's house.
Q: Who is Harold?
A: Harold was the man who happened to have lived in the house next door a year ago previously.
Q: What did he say to that?
A: He said, "No, it's the one next door."
Q: What happened after you and Tex (sic) and the other members of your Family drove off?
A: Well, we drove around and Charlie said we were going in the opposite direction than we came from.
We drove about in a predominantly colored area, I don't know the area but this is what I gathered.
Q: You saw quite a few Negroes in the area?
Q: All right, you may continue.
What happened next?
A: Charlie gave Linda Kasabian the woman's wallet and told her to put it into the bathroom in the gas station and leave it there hoping that somebody would find it and use the credit cards and thus be identified with the murder and then we left.
Q: Did Linda actually do that?
A: Yes, she said she did. I didn't see her leave it but she didn't come back with it, either.
Q: What is the next thing that happened?
A: Then we drove around for a long time and went back to sleep.
It wasn't like I was asleep, it was like I was drugged. I felt very heavily drugged. I was not on drugs at the time, I just felt like that I had been shot with morphine, or something, or fell asleep and I woke up back at the ranch.
Q: Back at the ranch, Susan, did you have any conversations with Patricia Krenwinkel concerning what had taken place inside the residence?
A: I did but I want to ask you a question on this.
Is it required that I give you the information that Katie gave me in front of the Grand Jury?
Q: No, it is not required, Susan, but all I can say is that we'd all appreciate it if you would tell us the complete story. That is what you are here for. We want the truth.
A: Well, I wouldn't lie to you but to say something that somebody told me, I don't know whether it is the truth.
Q: Well, we realize that, Susan, what she told you could have been a fabrication. We realize that.
What we are seeking now is to find out what she told you. It will be determined at a later time whether or not what she told you is the truth, but we would appreciate your telling the Grand Jury members what she told you, to the best of your recollection.
Would you do that for us?
A: Well, no disrespect for the Grand Jury members, what I am about to tell you I don't want to tell you but I will go ahead and tell you anyway.
Q: When did this conversation take place, Susan, with Katie?
A: The next morning.
Q: Were you by yourself?
Q: Is that at the Spahn Ranch?
Q: What did Katie tell you?
A: She told me that when they got in the house they took the woman into the bedroom and put her on the bed and left Tex in the living room with the man and that her and Leslie stayed with the woman and reassure that woman that everything was going to be all right and that everything was good and that they wouldn't be hurt and everything was going to be all right, and Katie told me this herself, she said, "I wasn't talking to that woman, I was talking to myself."
And then Katie said the woman heard her husband being killed and started to scream, "What are you doing to my husband?" And Katie said that she then proceeded to stab the woman with either a fork she got from the kitchen or a knife that she got from the kitchen, I'm not sure which.
Q: Did she say what Leslie was doing while --
A: Leslie was helping Katie hold the woman down because the woman was fighting all the way up until she was dead, and I looked at Katie -- and I'm not sure in my own mind whether Katie said this or I said this -- that is what the woman would carry with her infinitely, "What are you doing to my husband?"
Q: Did she say anything about a pillow case?
A: Yes, there was a pillow case placed over the woman's head.
Q: Who placed it over the woman's head?
A: I don't remember whether she did it herself or Leslie did it or whether they did it together.
Q: What else did Katie tell you occurred inside the residence?
A: She said that after that that they went out by the living room and wrote things on the front door.
Q: Did she say what she wrote on the front door?
A: "Death to all pigs." I'm not sure whether she said that they wrote that on the refrigerator door or on the front door.
Q: Did she say what they wrote it with?
Q: Did she say whether they wrote anything else?
A: I think she said they wrote "Helter-skelter."
Q: Did she say where they wrote that?
A: Not to my recollection. It was either on the front door or the refrigerator door, or on one of the two.
Q: Was that in blood, also?
Q: Did she say whether they wrote anything else?
Q: Did she say where they wrote "Arise"?
A: In the corner in the living room somewhere.
Q: Was that in blood, also?
Q: Did Katie say anything about fingerprints?
A: I don't really know whether she said anything about fingerprints but from previous experience I would imagine she did.
Then she said they all took showers and changed their clothes.
Q: Inside the residence?
Q: Did Katie say whether she had done anything with the fork?
Q: What did she say?
A: She said she went into the living room with a fork. She brought it from the kitchen.
She looked at the man's stomach and she had the fork in her hand and she put the fork in the man's stomach and watched it wobble back and forth. She said she was fascinated by it.
Q: Did she say anything about the word "War"?
A: She said that was carved -- no, she didn't say -- or, did she? I know -- I heard that "War" was carved on the man's chest.
A: Katie, I believe.
Q: Katie said that she and Leslie and Tex took a shower inside the house?
Q: After they killed the two people?
Q: What did they do after the shower; do you recall?
A: She said they came out of the shower and on the way into the kitchen the dog -- I can't even pronounce the name -- LaBianca's dog --
Q: Did she mention the name LaBianca to you?
Q: You may continue.
A: Their dog came in and wagged her tail in front of them and Katie bent over and petted the dog and was kind of surprised the dog wasn't afraid of her and the dog followed them into the kitchen and there they proceeded to eat.
Q: Did Katie say what they were eating?
A: They ate something. They were hungry and decided they wanted something to eat.
Q: Katie, Leslie and Tex?
Q: Where did they get the food?
A: From the refrigerator.
Q: Did Katie say anything about the children of these two people whom they had killed?
A: She said the bodies would probably be found, on her own assumption, just from the type of people that they were and the neighborhood, they probably had grown children, they'd usually would probably come over for like Sunday dinner, or Sunday afternoon, or sometime during the weekend the children would be over and would find the bodies.
Q: Did Katie say what she and the other two did with their clothing, if anything?
A: They changed their clothes.
Q: Did she say where they changed their clothes?
Q: Did she say what they did with the old clothes?
A: On the way back to the ranch they dumped the old clothing in a garbage can a few blocks, maybe a mile away from the house.
Q: After you spoke to Katie about this was there any other discussion on the ranch about what had taken place on the evening of August the 10th?
A: No, not to my knowledge.
Q: Did you hear Charlie talk about it at all?
A: Not to my knowledge.
Q: Susan, did Charlie oftentimes use the word pig, or, pigs?
Q: How about helter-skelter?
Q: Did he use the words pigs and helter-skelter very very frequently?
A: Well, Charlie talks a lot.
Q: I am concerned about these two words, pigs and helter-skelter.
A: I know of -- in some of the songs he wrote helter-skelter was in them and he'd talk about helter-skelter. We all talked about helter-skelter.
Q: You say "we," are you speaking of the Family?
Q: And that includes Tex?
Q: So the words pigs and helter-skelter were common vocabulary; is that correct?
Q: In what context would you and the other members of your Family use the words pig and pigs or helter-skelter?
A: Context? Would you --
Q: How would the words pigs and helter-skelter come up in your conversation?
A: They'd just come up. All conversations were spontaneous.
Q: What did the word pig or pigs mean to you and your Family?
A: You must understand that all words had no meanings to us and that helter-skelter was explained to me.
A: Charlie. I don't even like to say Charlie, I'd like to say the words came from his mouth that helter-skelter was to be the last war on the face of the earth. It would be all the wars that have ever been fought built one on top of the other, something that no man could conceive of in his imagination. You can't conceive of what it would be like to see every man judge himself and then take it out on every other man all over the face of the earth. And pig was a word used to describe the establishment.
Q: Today's establishment?
A: Today's establishment. It is not taking anything away from the establishment because we all have an understanding that the establishment is doing what the establishment is doing and that whatever it does and whatever the world is doing it's got to be perfect otherwise it wouldn't be happening and the world wouldn't be where it is at today.
Q: Susan, you testified earlier that on August the 16th there was a raid out at Spahn Ranch; is that correct?
A: Yes, there was.
Q: Between August 10th and August 16th what took place out at the Spahn Ranch?
A: There was a motorcycle group. We had a young man there by the name of Danny DeCarlo who was very very much in love with one of the young girls on the ranch and he stayed there, basically, because he was in love with her.
Q: How long had Danny been at the ranch?
A: About six months, to my knowledge, I would say six months. It didn't seem that long but he said that is about how long and his club members wanted him back in Venice and they didn't care what they had to do to us to get Danny back to Venice. So one night all of them came out, all of the Straight Satans, that is Danny's group, Danny's motorcycle group, they came out and talked to Danny in private.
The men threatened to rape all of us girls and they wanted to -- they told us that if Danny wasn't back in Venice by 5:00 o'clock the next night they would come out and kill us all including the children and start a fire and burn the ranch down, and we proceeded to look at them and said, "Go ahead. Danny does what Danny wants to do. If Danny wants to stay here that is up to him, you can come out and kill us all, we won't even fight back." And we wouldn't have.
Q: On August 16th were most of you arrested at that time?
A: All of us were arrested. There were 31 people.
Q: And were you later released?
Q: Eventually did you go to the Barker Ranch in Inyo County?
Q: How did you get there?
A: The big bus was taken up to the Barker Ranch last summer -- last winter Charlie drove it up there.
Q: Charlie Manson?
A: Yes, this was right after my child was born, about two, three months after.
Q: Between August the 10th and August the 16th did Charlie or you or any other member of the family go out to anyone else's home and do what you previously did?
A: No, not to my knowledge.
MR. STOVITZ: We have concluded this witness's testimony.
THE FOREMAN: Any member of the Jury have any questions that they would like to ask the witness?
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Do you know Clem's true name?
A: All I know is that when I first met him I knew him by Steve.
Q: Did Katie tell you whether or not she and Leslie and Tex took any money from the LaBianca's residence?
A: Not to my knowledge.
Q: Is Clem Tufts the same party as Steve Grogan?
A: That sounds correct.
THE FOREMAN: Are there any more questions?
I would like to give you the same admonition that I gave you this morning.
You are admonished not to discuss or impart at any time outside of this Jury Room the questions that have been asked of you in regard to this matter, or your answers, until authorized by this Grand Jury or the Court to discuss or impart such matters.
You will understand that a violation of these instructions on your part may be the basis for a charge against you of contempt of court.
This admonition, of course, does not preclude you from discussing your legal rights with any legally-employed attorney, should you feel that your on personal rights are in any way in jeopardy.
You may be excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.